Curse

lacasner · May 13, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

GvG is definitely the most fun PvP in Guild Wars, but with one big problem- if your guild isn't very into it, then you aren't gonna do good. Or get a group.

Yup, and not only that, but its the same mechanics all over again. It's fun, but again with same builds over and over and same map objectives, no matter how good the pizza is, eating the same kind every time will make you sick of it.

Skuld · May 13, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

The same can be said of anything ;p

lacasner · May 13, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

The same can be said of anything ;p

In a PVP perspective no, because usually RA or AB has some more diverse builds. I like competitve PVP, but why can't it be competitive with 10 different build combinations with are equally as good instead of just 1?

Avarre · May 13, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

In a PVP perspective no, because usually RA or AB has some more diverse builds. I like competitve PVP, but why can't it be competitive with 10 different build combinations with are equally as good instead of just 1?

How often do you GvG, exactly?

Skuld · May 13, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

I have no idea what are you are talking about -.-

Yichi · May 13, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

In a PVP perspective no, because usually RA or AB has some more diverse builds. I like competitve PVP, but why can't it be competitive with 10 different build combinations with are equally as good instead of just 1?

Ok so let me get this straight. Two of the WORST casual PVP areas, are the best in the game? Are you serious? Let me explain just exactically why this is flawed.

1.) RA - Lets run whatever stupid build i can throw together on my bar with 3 other random builds with no coordination 3/4 of the time. The onyl reason you see build diversity is because this is where people go to try and get their feet wet in PVP. You either have an all hex necro, a rit, impale sins, hex sins, or a zb monk.... or something REALLY bad like a mystic regen warrior with a scythe.... or a flare ele.... Yes its random and you see every random BAD build you can find. Seriously go enter a match. youll find at least 10 different people running some build that will never work and yet still try to defend their knowledge of PVP....

2.) AB - yes lets run a bunch of touch rangers and go own AI to capture points. This was anets attempt to try and bridge the PVE/PVP gap by adding a mixed structure in PVP. This isnt by any means competitive as the only thing you get from it benefits a pve format... its based on the same bad principal as the UW/FoW favor system... conquer enough things to win and open this area to be able to explore, aka the deep and urgoz by controlling towns with faction.... This system as been known to have been a joke because its the exact same as the gay ass build shit you see in RA. I mean seriously when a PVE minion master can go into a PVP area and do better than 3/4 of the builds you see running around in there, somethings wrong.

The reason you dont see the build diversity in higher levels of PVP such as HA or GVG is because those builds are proven not to be effective. Thats why there are only certian types of builds that are run. The difference is tactics in those areas. Tactics can play just as much, if not a bigger role in these areas than your actual build can.

Randomness is out of the question. Why on earth would you take a subpar build into a highly competitive format if you know its going to fail? While build diversity is good and all, some builds are just proved to be way too effective to change. honestly look at monks over time. The first and most effective build a monk had was the OoB Boon Prot. This build was the staple build in GVG for the longest time. The reason it fell out of play was because it WAS the only viable build to run and have any form of success, thus bringing abotu the nerf to OoB. Then came the inspiration boon prots and the gift of health monk. These were optimal builds for the time due to the metagame shifting. The inspiration boon prot offered the same as the oob boon did. The gift of health monk offered good hex and condition removal which was vital with the new hexes and conditions released with factions. Now we have the LoD/RC monk combo which is the optimal build in this meta due to the mass conditions spam from so many different characters, with the LoD being a much better version of Heal Party to give a party wide cheap efficient heal.

In a more competitive environment such as these, your build has to be able to deal with whats currently out there. That and the fact that there are some skills that are better than others. No matter how this game gets balanced, there will alwasy be some skills that will outshine, outplay, and outlast all other skills, no matter how they are buffed. Thats just a fact of this game and every game. Im sorry but if i'm playing in a competitive format, im playing to win, and im bringing the best build i can find to help me do that with the best players i have. Thus why im not going to risk it on an unknown build just to be able to say well at least im not runnign the same thing. Everyone runs a similar build for that very reason. they are playing to win and with whats out there at the moment, that style of build offers them the best chance.

Thus the reason why most people say that pvp is dead, due to it being stale. We have areas of PVP that are a complete joke as mentioned above, we have areas of PVP that shouldnt be a PVP area, such as HvH. I mean seriously how it 3 of 4 players being heros called Player vs player combat..... And your big areas in PVP such as Ha and GVG are stricken with either imbalanced maps, imbalanced win conditions, or imbalanced skills that you see every 5 seconds... The metagame is stale, the AT's are a joke in their current form, and there is nothing really worth while anymore in competitive PVP. So basically as i have said before... when your 2 biggest areas of PVP are stale and dying due to inactivity, then yes. I wont officially say that competitive PVP is dead, but it is deffinately in intensive care on life support at the moment.

Steps_Descending · May 13, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

MistressYichi :
what would you do if they added a (real) 1vs1 arena?

Yichi · May 13, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

MistressYichi :
what would you do if they added a (real) 1vs1 arena?

Honestly, nothing because that doesnt determine skill, it determins build and louck of the draw.... if im on a monk and your on a warrior, you lose. If im on a warrior and youre on a shutdown hexer, i lose. If im on a mesmer and youre on a ranger, i lose. If im on a ranger and youre on a monk, its a draw...

The variables on a true 1v1 arena would turn it into nothing but buildwars and would be completely either empty or broing after the first 5 minutes.

Avarre · May 13, 2007, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Honestly, nothing because that doesnt determine skill, it determins build and louck of the draw.... if im on a monk and your on a warrior, you lose. If im on a warrior and youre on a shutdown hexer, i lose. If im on a mesmer and youre on a ranger, i lose. If im on a ranger and youre on a monk, its a draw...

The variables on a true 1v1 arena would turn it into nothing but buildwars and would be completely either empty or broing after the first 5 minutes.

Except Mesmer vs Mesmer, pre-Nf those could be awesome duels.

Steps_Descending · May 13, 2007, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Honestly, nothing because that doesnt determine skill, it determins build and louck of the draw.... if im on a monk and your on a warrior, you lose. If im on a warrior and youre on a shutdown hexer, i lose. If im on a mesmer and youre on a ranger, i lose. If im on a ranger and youre on a monk, its a draw...

The variables on a true 1v1 arena would turn it into nothing but buildwars and would be completely either empty or broing after the first 5 minutes.

Interesting answer.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Good night.

Liberations · May 13, 2007, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Woah... I usually avoid these kind of back and forth confusing threads like the plague, but i'm going to give my two cents anyway. PvP isn't dead, lets say it's sick while not getting better or worse, leaving us stale but not broken.

" PvP died the day they introduced PvP rewards. "

PvP rewards were a big plus to PvP, it was to combat PvE having the only impact to getting things unlocked to PvP, and reduced grind. More PvP rewards= more incentive to play. I personally wouldn't be playing PvP if I had to unlock everything though PvE. I am somewhat dedicated to both PvP and PvE. Having to depend on one profusely for the other would be torture and I might have quit Guild Wars because of it. The HoH thing with favor is just bareable as I don't really farm that much anyway, I just go into FoW every now and then.

Whatever just have fun with it and wait for EotN to bring us back a PvE renewal. I bet during the time between EotN and GW 2 we will have a lot of attention directed on PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Ok so let me get this straight. Two of the WORST casual PVP areas, are the best in the game? Are you serious? Let me explain just exactically why this is flawed.

1.) RA - Lets run whatever stupid build i can throw together on my bar with 3 other random builds with no coordination 3/4 of the time. The onyl reason you see build diversity is because this is where people go to try and get their feet wet in PVP. You either have an all hex necro, a rit, impale sins, hex sins, or a zb monk.... or something REALLY bad like a mystic regen warrior with a scythe.... or a flare ele.... Yes its random and you see every random BAD build you can find. Seriously go enter a match. youll find at least 10 different people running some build that will never work and yet still try to defend their knowledge of PVP....

2.) AB - yes lets run a bunch of touch rangers and go own AI to capture points. This was anets attempt to try and bridge the PVE/PVP gap by adding a mixed structure in PVP. This isnt by any means competitive as the only thing you get from it benefits a pve format... its based on the same bad principal as the UW/FoW favor system... conquer enough things to win and open this area to be able to explore, aka the deep and urgoz by controlling towns with faction.... This system as been known to have been a joke because its the exact same as the gay ass build shit you see in RA. I mean seriously when a PVE minion master can go into a PVP area and do better than 3/4 of the builds you see running around in there, somethings wrong.

The reason you dont see the build diversity in higher levels of PVP such as HA or GVG is because those builds are proven not to be effective. Thats why there are only certian types of builds that are run. The difference is tactics in those areas. Tactics can play just as much, if not a bigger role in these areas than your actual build can.

Randomness is out of the question. Why on earth would you take a subpar build into a highly competitive format if you know its going to fail? While build diversity is good and all, some builds are just proved to be way too effective to change. honestly look at monks over time. The first and most effective build a monk had was the OoB Boon Prot. This build was the staple build in GVG for the longest time. The reason it fell out of play was because it WAS the only viable build to run and have any form of success, thus bringing abotu the nerf to OoB. Then came the inspiration boon prots and the gift of health monk. These were optimal builds for the time due to the metagame shifting. The inspiration boon prot offered the same as the oob boon did. The gift of health monk offered good hex and condition removal which was vital with the new hexes and conditions released with factions. Now we have the LoD/RC monk combo which is the optimal build in this meta due to the mass conditions spam from so many different characters, with the LoD being a much better version of Heal Party to give a party wide cheap efficient heal.

In a more competitive environment such as these, your build has to be able to deal with whats currently out there. That and the fact that there are some skills that are better than others. No matter how this game gets balanced, there will alwasy be some skills that will outshine, outplay, and outlast all other skills, no matter how they are buffed. Thats just a fact of this game and every game. Im sorry but if i'm playing in a competitive format, im playing to win, and im bringing the best build i can find to help me do that with the best players i have. Thus why im not going to risk it on an unknown build just to be able to say well at least im not runnign the same thing. Everyone runs a similar build for that very reason. they are playing to win and with whats out there at the moment, that style of build offers them the best chance.

Thus the reason why most people say that pvp is dead, due to it being stale. We have areas of PVP that are a complete joke as mentioned above, we have areas of PVP that shouldnt be a PVP area, such as HvH. I mean seriously how it 3 of 4 players being heros called Player vs player combat..... And your big areas in PVP such as Ha and GVG are stricken with either imbalanced maps, imbalanced win conditions, or imbalanced skills that you see every 5 seconds... The metagame is stale, the AT's are a joke in their current form, and there is nothing really worth while anymore in competitive PVP. So basically as i have said before... when your 2 biggest areas of PVP are stale and dying due to inactivity, then yes. I wont officially say that competitive PVP is dead, but it is deffinately in intensive care on life support at the moment.

AB and RA are the most active forms of PvP for the common player, and are quick and fun. That explains their popularity.
GvG is always fun if you don't lose immediately. Period.
HA is great but it isn't as popular as it used to be because of changes. 6v6 killed the idea of HA, regardless of if it was good or not.

B Ephekt · May 13, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Except Mesmer vs Mesmer, pre-Nf those could be awesome duels.

Crip shot battles were pretty fun too. I still scrim one of my guild mates with Burning Arrow rangers when we're bored.

1v1 is generally pretty terrible though. I can't help but think "wow this guy is horrible at the game" when someone asks for a serious 1v1.

Alleji · May 13, 2007, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Crip shot battles were pretty fun too. I still scrim one of my guild mates with Burning Arrow rangers when we're bored.

<3 Cripshot 1v1

You can get those in AB once in a while, between cripshot/burning arrow/poison arrow...

Death_From_Above · May 13, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Well in terms of pvp i think i can offer some possible theorys regarding the HA sectioned and gvg section as to why its becoming bland. I think first of all HA is the initial starting point on this, remember this is only a theory. But anyways you get good gvg macths from good guilds who are generally good at gvg. You also find this then tends to result in greater build diversity so on and so forth. So when HA was messed up and many PVpers quit, most of which where experianced gvgers and HAers. Or where gvgers but Haed whiles people came on to HA and they would find they had enough for gvg and so gvged. So poor HA means peopel dont come on, guild disintergrates. Decrease in build diversity and player skill. You get less intresting macthes vice versa. Less players also, less skilled ones also, leads to all problems like people basically running gimmicks because thats all they know how to.

Basically, HA affects gvg and with its recent demise this negative effected had filtered into gvg corrupting it also. Anyways what do you guys think of this.

Shadow Kurd · May 13, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

The reason >>>I<<< think there is such a small group of experienced PvPers is because they don't give new ones a chance. When i go to HA all i see is LF R8+ or R11+ same when in TA all i see is R3+ or G1+. Even when you do get accepted in a group(YEAH RIGHT!!) you're gonna get flamed into the ground for making the smallest mistake.

I fear the worst will come with EoTN:
100 new profession-specific skills

Skuld · May 13, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Kurd

The reason >>>I<<< think there is such a small group of experienced PvPers is because they don't give new ones a chance. When i go to HA all i see is LF R8+ or R11+ same when in TA all i see is R3+ or G1+. Even when you do get accepted in a group(YEAH RIGHT!!) you're gonna get flamed into the ground for making the smallest mistake.

I fear the worst will come with EoTN:
100 new profession-specific skills

1) They all started at nothing, why can't you.
2) They're playing to win, not handing out charity to newbies.

Yichi · May 13, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Kurd

The reason >>>I<<< think there is such a small group of experienced PvPers is because they don't give new ones a chance. When i go to HA all i see is LF R8+ or R11+ same when in TA all i see is R3+ or G1+. Even when you do get accepted in a group(YEAH RIGHT!!) you're gonna get flamed into the ground for making the smallest mistake.

I fear the worst will come with EoTN:
100 new profession-specific skills

Expierenced players are forming groups with other expierenced players. It isnt their job to babysit you and teach you about the game. Take some initative on your own to learn and get better. Its how the expierenced players got to where they are. why cant you? So you got a shitty team, big deal. Evaluate your team. what did u do wrong, what did the other team do right, what could be improved upon.... fix the problems and try it again. Learn from every expierence you have. its the only way youll advance in PVP.

Series · May 13, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Expierenced players are forming groups with other expierenced players. It isnt their job to babysit you and teach you about the game. Take some initative on your own to learn and get better. Its how the expierenced players got to where they are. why cant you? So you got a shitty team, big deal. Evaluate your team. what did u do wrong, what did the other team do right, what could be improved upon.... fix the problems and try it again. Learn from every expierence you have. its the only way youll advance in PVP.

Yes, because being rank 10 clearly makes you so much more skilled than a rank 9 that having a single rank 9 on your team will result in immediate failure.

It has nothing to do with learning the game, it has to do with elitist assholes who wont give people a chance because they won a few more times, regardless of if the player is or isn't as skilled as them. Fame is not a representation of skill. Neither is gladiator. Or anything like that.

Skuld · May 13, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

The scenario in question is a rank nothing wanting to join R8 and R11 teams, not a 1 rank difference, jeez.

Rank is a representation of experience, if you're a high rank then you've probably ran everything under the sun and know exactly what to do. Someone with no/few experience (rank) is more likely to screw up on something like bodyblocking, or won't have played all the maps. If your success counts on being able to do that thing and the newbie screws up, you and your team are not gonna be pleased.

crimsonfilms · May 13, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Yes, because being rank 10 clearly makes you so much more skilled than a rank 9 that having a single rank 9 on your team will result in immediate failure.

It has nothing to do with learning the game, it has to do with elitist assholes who wont give people a chance because they won a few more times, regardless of if the player is or isn't as skilled as them. Fame is not a representation of skill. Neither is gladiator. Or anything like that.

Then why you invest so much time and emotion trying to join them?
There are lot of non ranked people willing to join you - why not join them?

Let me guess - you actually care about rank and winning but give the opposite BS when you get rejected.

It is funny, you dismiss the ways and attitude of people who have something you want. Irony or hypocrisy?